Haley Moss, lawyer, author and co-host of the Spectrumly Speaking podcast series, discusses the future of autism hiring programs and their impact on the recruitment and retention of neurodivergent employees in the workplace.
Intro: [00:00:00.21] Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive workplace leader. Join host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com, as she sits down and gets to the bottom of trends, tools and case studies for the business leader, HR and recruiting professional who is tired of the status quo. Now, here’s Jessica with this episode of Workology,
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:00:27.65] One of the most popular articles on the Workology website is about autism hiring programs. I wrote this article while working with a technology startup that provided resources for caregivers of children who had disabilities and needed access to resources and support. It’s been one of our most popular articles for job seekers and their family members who identify as autistic. However, there is a lot of debate about autistic specific hiring programs and the types of jobs they can or cannot do. And that’s what we’re talking about today. This episode is part of the Workology podcast. It’s part of the Future of Work Series powered by PEAT, the Partnership on Employment and Accessible Technology. In honor of our 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act this year, we’re investigating what the next 30 years will look like for people with disabilities at work and the potential of emerging technologies to make workplaces more inclusive and accessible. Today, I’m joined by Haley Moss. Haley is the author of Middle School: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About and A Freshman Survival Guide for College Students with Autism Spectrum Disorders: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About. She also illustrated and contributed to the anthology What Every Autistic Girl Wishes Her Parents knew. Her writing about autism, neurodiversity and disability has appeared in publications such as The Washington Post, ABA Journal, Huff Post, Teen Vogue, Fast Company and more. Haley also co-hosts the Spectrumly Speaking podcast, which is dedicated to women who are on the autism spectrum. In addition, she has a forthcoming scholarship on lawyers with disabilities, disabilities’ intersection with standardized testing, as well as on crimes against disabled children. She currently serves on the Florida Bar for Young Lawyers Division Board of Governors, the constituency board for the University of Miami, NOVA, Southeastern University Center for Autism and Related Disabilities and the Board of Directors for Different Brains. She is the chair of the Unicorn Children’s Foundation Junior Board and is a co-chair of the Miami-Dade Chapter of Florida Association for Women Lawyers Diversity Committee. Wow, Haley, that is a lot and I’m so excited to have you on this podcast. Welcome to the Workology podcast.
Haley Moss: [00:02:48.12] Thank you so much for having me.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:02:50.78] Talk to us a little bit about your background.
Haley Moss: [00:02:53.83] That’s always one of the best questions because I never know exactly where to start since it’s so broad. But I was diagnosed with autism when I was three years old. I feel like that’s kind of the first starting point. And you have to understand, I was diagnosed back in the late 90s when our understanding and awareness, so to speak, of autism wasn’t what it was today. We didn’t have the same statistics of one in 54 children. Over two million adults are on the spectrum estimated. So, we didn’t have the same prevalence or identification that we did then. So, it was a very different world when I was first diagnosed with autism. And today I like to, I know this is a huge fast forward since we’re talking a lot about work and not my entire life story, so I went to the University of Florida. I graduated with two degrees. I graduated in criminology and psychology. I did a minor in Disability in Society, which kind of started that disability studies theoretical interest of mine as well. And I went to law school at the University of Miami. I am proud to be an attorney. I passed and took the Florida bar exam. I was practicing in health care and international law before going on my own to do disability inclusion consulting and speaking and trying to help educate and empower people. So that’s kind of where I am now and what I’m trying to do. And I really am a huge nerd about the Americans with Disabilities Act, which I’m so glad that you brought up too. And that’s kind of where the personal and the professional backgrounds come together for me.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:04:19.71] I love it. And it’s great hearing your story about, you know, from the beginning to present day. We’re talking today about the future of autism hiring programs with you, among other things. One of the things I did want to make sure we talked about, because in our prep call, we talked about stereotypes. And I know that you have some opinions about perceptions of the autistic community and the jobs that they can or cannot do. So, could you share with us a little bit about some of those?
Haley Moss: [00:04:51.27] Absolutely. So, I think that there is a huge binary of what society and employers think that autistic people can do and the jobs that they think we’re best suited for. So, what I tend to see and notice is a lot of recruitment from tech companies and I think it’s wonderful. There’s plenty of autistic people who are very, very gifted when it comes to science, engineering, technology and mathematics.
Haley Moss: [00:05:15.27] Unfortunately for me, I went to law school. Like most people who went to law school, I like to joke that I went to law school because math is not my strong suit. When I was in first year contracts, any time they’d make us calculate damages, every single person would look at each other and start laughing. And because we just didn’t know how to do it very well and we’re like, this is more math than we bargained for coming to law school. So, I don’t really fit into that tech stereotype at all. And the other stereotype tends to be people who are labeled as having higher support needs or might not be seen or given the same opportunities to be independent. They might have co-ocurring intellectual disabilities. They may also need more support in their daily lives. And a lot of programs that work on recruiting those folks focus in the retail and service industries. So when you see things like car washes and bakeries and these types of contained businesses that are usually owned by very well-meaning families and people just to employ folks who are autistic or have intellectual and developmental disabilities, or you see these people working in service, like in my local grocery store. And then you have groups of people like me that don’t quite fit into either box. I have a law degree. I have a law license. I’m also not a tech genius. So, I’m a little bit too well equipped to be a cashier at my local Publix or my local grocery store. But I also don’t have the right skill set to be in tech, so these recruitment programs leave out a huge subset of people with different interests and skills. And like all other people, there are things that each of us are really good at and things that each of us aren’t and that range and spectrum is infinite.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:06:54.51] Thank you for talking about that, because one of the most popular articles on my website is a list of companies that have autism specific hiring programs. And so, a lot of them are bakeries or car washes or tech companies. But I think it’s important to remember and mention that everyone is unique and different. And just because you are someone with autism, like you said, doesn’t mean you’re a tech genius. Or that you need to be a grocery store cashier. On the heels of this, I am thinking about autism hiring programs. I talked a little bit about the article that we have that’s very popular on the Workology site. And many companies have created these autism specific hiring programs. Are you in favor of these kind of programs? Or do you think they hurt more than they help?
Haley Moss: [00:07:46.27] So, my answer is it depends and a yes and no. So, I don’t think they’re bad. I think they’re absolutely well-intentioned. I just think there’s a lot of work that needs to be done to make them the strongest that they can be and to make sure that they help as much as possible. So, that in mind, I don’t want this to come off as a ringing endorsement or a resounding disavowment of autism hiring programs. And when you mentioned as well with the tech companies and the bakeries, I think the diversity of the roles is where I seem to have the most issue, is you don’t see these tech companies, say, looking for legal counsel who, as part of their autism hiring programs. So that’s where kind of I draw that wrinkle as well. And I think with these programs, my biggest concern as well is you got to think who they’re targeting, how they’re recruiting and who is heading up these efforts. So, a lot of the times the people who are in charge of autism hiring programs are neurotypical. So, they’re not neurodivergent people or autistic people that are involved in the creation of the consulting, the trainings, all the different things that go into making them successful. And you have to think of how they are recruiting candidates? Are they purposely going after autistic people or are they targeting our families, so they tell us to apply. I think it really is a very nuanced and difficult conversation. I think it needs to expand to be more neurodiversity friendly, so not just autistic people, but also folks who are otherwise neurodivergent. So, people with learning disabilities, with ADHD, etcetera, because, again, neurodiversity at work should be kind of the goal, because we all do better when we have more neurodiverse environments. We do better working with all kinds of minds.
Haley Moss: [00:09:26.27] So I think they need to expand. And I think not only that, with these autism specific hiring programs, they do a really good job retaining talent, which I think is wonderful. Like once talent gets in the door, they stay. But I think we also need to make sure if people are staying, that we’re investing in their professional development, that they’re being mentored, that they’re able to move through the corporate ladder, so to speak, and make it to executive leadership. I would love to see an autism hiring program that is led by autistic people, that the trainings aren’t focused on the deficits of autistic people, but how our neurotypical colleagues, for instance, can do better working with us and rather, rather than just writing us off as awkward, for instance. So again, I think this is a very nuanced conversation and I think that we’re making moves in the right direction. I think that we’re taking positive steps. But again, I think there’s so much more to do and ways to make it that it maximizes the benefit for everybody involved at all stages of hiring and employment.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:26.58] The reason I wanted to have you answer that question is, is for this response, because I think that HR and recruiting leaders and businesses often have really good intentions. I know I have good intentions, but sometimes we make mistakes, or we don’t think about the big picture or we don’t think about individuals, people as individuals. And so, this is why it’s important to hear your opinion, because you are not the typical — you’re an attorney. And it’s, I mean, when I found out that you and I are going to be speaking, I was like, oh, very interesting. But that’s why I wanted to talk about this, because everybody’s different, everybody’s unique. And we shouldn’t pigeonhole people into a certain job or characteristics just because of one thing.
Haley Moss: [00:11:20.27] Absolutely. I one hundred percent agree with you, and I think that’s really important that we bring that up too, like you’re saying. So, I really am grateful to have this conversation and I really hope that more industries jump on the bandwagon and that we aren’t pigeonholing people either, like you’re saying. So, thank you for letting me speak a little bit about that.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:24:06.16] Yes. All HR people are also not bad people, too. So, I, we get that a lot in our industry also.
Haley Moss: [00:11:46.27] We need all the help we can get. And I think it’s really important to see people as people. So, I know we’ve been in legal sometimes. We have to remember that lawyers are people and people are lawyers.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: True.
Haley Moss: Somebody else pointed that out to me and I was like that, that makes a lot of sense because we don’t give ourselves the same grace that we give our clients, for instance. And I’m like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like we see them as people, and we don’t always see ourselves as people.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:18:08.16] I love it. One area that I also wanted to talk about with you is self-disclosure. What advice would you give employees who have a disability? How do they talk to their employer and when should they talk to them about the fact that they have a disability?
Haley Moss: [00:12:25.27] I think the best time to let people know is honestly whenever you feel comfortable. So, disclosure is one of those conversations that is a hundred percent in your control as a person with a disability. At least that’s what I believe. Or it should be in your control. So, for instance, you can’t be asked about it explicitly in an interview like what kind of disabilities you have. You can’t be asked super prying questions other than can you perform the essential functions of this job with or without accommodations. So, whatever you volunteer is, it’s different based on what you’re volunteering. So, I always disclose pretty quickly because if you Google my name, it’s not a secret. I will have to explain it away anyway. And I feel like for me, taking a proactive approach makes it that: 1) my resume doesn’t look really sparse, 2), it doesn’t look like I’m hiding something and I’m not hiding something. So that’s just how I personally approach things. But I think for most people, the best time is often when they need an accommodation. And I’ve learned as well, as time goes on, people don’t always have to say I need an accommodation because of my disability in order to get the help they need to do a better job with what they have to. So something that folks that I know will do is after they get an assignment or they realize that their manager’s communication style isn’t working for them as autistic people or someone who’s otherwise neurodivergent, they’ll say something like to their manager, like, I work best when you give me clearer instructions.
Haley Moss: [00:13:54.27] So they’re not just asking for an accommodation. They’re just saying: this is going to help you and it’s going to help me so I can do better at my job. And it’s a way that puts that self-advocacy spin both on the employee and the employer. So framing accommodation is really, I think the best way to do it is how you are framing it, is you can frame it with or without disclosing. And I think that’s a really interesting point. So I’ve been trying to do that more too when I work with different people is that I work best when I can do a better job, when I want to do the best that I can in this situation. So even like in the hiring process, I have friends that will say: I want to do the best that I can and put the best effort forward in this process. In order to do that, I need X, Y and Z. So, it’s all about being proactive, knowing what you need, and again, when it does come to disclosure, I think it also determines, things like the tone of your company where you are.
Haley Moss: [00:14:52.27] And I also know that people are more likely to disclose if someone who is in senior leadership discloses or that there’s this culture of inclusion and acceptance that kind of goes around. So not even just on disability, but if people are disclosing non apparent marginalization. So, if someone is saying that they might be LGBTQ or that they have a mental health condition, but it wasn’t otherwise talked about. So just kind of something to keep in mind as well as keep in mind, what are you doing by disclosing. why do you need to and what’s the culture and how do you think it will be taken?
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:15:26.16] I love that. “I do my best when.” I mean, I think this is something that anybody can use, and even when you’re talking to friends or family members or co-workers, this is what I need. And I want to do my best. This is how I do my best. Can you help? And I feel like most people, good humans, are going to say, sure, that sounds good. I can do that.
Haley Moss: [00:14:15.53] Absolutely. And I, but there are things that I think you definitely would need a written accommodation for, for instance. So, it really does depend on the situation. But I know for me, I need people to give clear instructions. So even if it’s as simple as putting the time zone in or clarifying whether it’s close of business or end of day. And sometimes I could just say I work best when you give really clear instructions or just to make sure I have this right, can, is it this, this and this. Or I work best when the deadlines are firm, or you give me something beforehand or I get extra feedback. There’s so many different ways to do it. And it’s not just autism or disability specific. So I like to look at disclosure and accommodation from this universal design standpoint of how do we take these principles that do often work for and are designed around people with disabilities and whatnot, and how do we make them so they ultimately end up benefiting everybody? Much like subtitles do on TV, that subtitles originally existed for deaf users. But how many of us watch Netflix with subtitles because we’re too busy or we want to know what somebody said in a whisper. Or we don’t want to rewind, or we just absorb visual information better. It ultimately benefits everybody.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:17:04.16] I love it. I don’t want to wake up my partner, so I will listen. I will read the subtitles and watch a movie at the same time. It’s, thanks for the example. I think people can really relate to that.
Haley Moss: [00:17:04.53] Or if you’re learning a new language, there’s just so many things that we don’t think about. But that’s not what they were originally designed for, that had all these extra benefits that benefited hearing folks.
Breaker: [00:17:23.48] Let’s take a reset. This is Jessica Miller-Merrell and you are listening to the Workology Podcast sponsored by Workology. Today, we are talking with Haley Moss about autism hiring programs. This podcast is part of our Future of Work series in partnership with the Partnership on Employment and Accessible Technology or PEAT.
Breaker: [00:17:23.48] The Workology Podcast Future of Work series is supported by PEAT, the Partnership on Employment and Accessible Technology. PEAT’s initiative is to foster collaboration and action around accessible technology in the workplace. PEAT is funded by the U.S. Department of Labor’s Office of Disability Employment Policy, ODEP. Learn more about PEAT at peatworks.org. That’s peatworks.org
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:18:15.59] Let’s talk about technology. With so many people working from home and doing it remotely, I wanted to talk about accessibility. What are some trends and best practices that you’re seeing right now?
Haley Moss: [00:18:27.53] So right now, I’m seeing that everything is far more accessible generally, which I think is wonderful, because I have so many autistic friends who struggle with the social politics of being in an office, that it was just miserable for so many of us because it’s like, I don’t know how to talk to this person. I can’t do this, blah blah blah, or even just things like my office has really terrible fluorescent lighting and it gives you migraines and it also hums all day. And now that I mention that, you probably will think about this every time you hear fluorescent lights, I’m sorry.
Haley Moss: [00:18:57.53] But there are so many factors that are at work in the office from the old days or the before times, however you want to call it, that now are in play. So, I think it’s far more accessible. And there was a time where you would request flex time or work from home, and it would be seen as unreasonable accommodation because it might be too burdensome on the employer. And as we’ve noticed now, that isn’t quite the case. So, with best practices, I think it really is down to open communication. And with all the different technology we have, communicating openly is a lot easier. But then again, I think like we talked about before we started recording, boundaries are key.
Haley Moss: [00:19:36.53] So, if you are currently slacking or you have your text on or your emails, like you have to set boundaries, too. So that’s kind of the trend that I am most worried about as far as accessibility is, we’re becoming almost too accessible as humans, rather than accessible from a disability standpoint. So that’s something that I’m thinking about too. But I really am excited, and I think it also opens opportunities for those who can’t get to physical spaces or that might have never taken a job in a certain industry because it required a burdensome move or it was a high cost of living. So, I look at it that this working remotely thing opens so many doors for so many different people.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:20:16.59] I agree. It’s great. My commute is short, but the boundaries piece, I think, is going to be an ongoing challenge for everyone.
Haley Moss: [00:20:27.53] I’m still trying to figure it out because I’m like, I try to treat it like nine to five. But I also realize you’re not nine to five accessible anymore. And at least in legal people I know are reporting working longer hours than ever before because of this expectation that you’re always on or able to be reached because you’re home.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:20:44.59] I have had that, too. And so, like the reason this conversation came up to give some context to everybody else is I put “Do not disturb on my Slack so that I didn’t get any messages because it’s very challenging. I’m recording a podcast and I’m in a conference room and I’m talking with Haley. I want to give Haley all my attention, but it’s very challenging when you get 50 messages and it’s all needed right away. It’s not needed right away. They can wait a few minutes until the end of the interview, but my brain gets distracted and wants to say, oh, I need to solve this problem instead of talking to Haley and putting together a great podcastHaley Moss: [00:21:22.53] I like to kind of go by this idea of strategizing because I’m someone who struggles with executive functioning. So planning, staying on task, staying organized. I like to go, is it important? Is it urgent? Is it important but not urgent? Is it urgent and important, like ask those questions and then kind of delegate that way, and rank the tasks based on if it’s urgent and important, important but not urgent, urgent but not important or neither. In the things that aren’t either/or I could just keep putting off until I have more time or have just extra emotional and mental bandwidth for it.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:21:58.36] I want to go back to virtual workplace technologies. Are there any that you’re loving right now or really impressed with that you wanted to share?
Haley Moss: [00:22:09.53] I think I’m really impressed that I’m seeing more transcripts and more subtitles on things. So, I know that everybody is kind of tired of being on Zoom all the time. And I know sometimes for me, being on Zoom can be exhausting for hours on end. Like, I still have to look at people’s faces, I still have to listen and what if my mike is on when I’m busy with something. But the fact that a lot of these things are still able to have transcripts, recordings, things like that, that’s stuff that really does impress me. And I love when I get a recording with a transcript after the fact, because I’m someone who does better with written information and visuals rather than just following all the auditory information. So that’s something I’m really excited about and I think technologies around that should be more commonplace at work. So if you do have things that are recorded, or different webinars or things like that, even podcasts, that having a transcript I think is so helpful for so many employees and folks, because if, even if you don’t have a hearing impairment, like we were saying, even with this universal design thing when we were talking about captions, but it helps me as someone who does do better with visual processing than auditory. And it just makes me really excited. And I can also read something faster than I can watch it and I can retain the information better. So, I’m really excited seeing that oh, my God, a meeting might actually be just a transcript or a caption. That is so helpful.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:23:31.36] I’m really loving meetings that are archives that I can listen to or read the transcript later so I don’t have to be present at the actual live event and I get up, do other things and then come back to it maybe when it can have my full attention.
Haley Moss: [00:23:46.53] Exactly. I’ve been doing that because I was part of this disability training that goes on every week that’s for the disabled community. And it’s always at the least convenient time for me on Sunday afternoons. And I just don’t want to do it on a Sunday afternoon, especially because we’re in different time zones. It just isn’t convenient. But later in the week, they always send the recording, the archive and the transcript, and then I follow along then and it’s on my time when I can give it my full attention. And I’m not concerned about what my plans are on Sunday.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:24:18.36] I love it. And then all your attention is devoted to that one activity and not five hundred things that you’re doing at two o’clock in the afternoon on a Wednesday.
Haley Moss: [00:24:29.53] Exactly.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:24:30.36] For employers who have an accessibility request from an employee, do you have any recommendations for HR leaders on how they should begin researching or learning about accessibility, technology options? I think it’s a challenge right now for figuring out where to start.
Haley Moss: [00:24:47.53] Absolutely. And I think it’s challenging, too, especially because every disability community is different, and every disabled human being is different. So, what I need or would request for accessibility or accommodation as an autistic person is not what another autistic person might need or request so that I want to get out right away. I think the most important thing you can do is listen to people with disabilities, because what I do, because I’m a lawyer and I also have a background in journalism. I wrote for my high school paper. I still write journalism because I think it’s interesting is I find the experts and when I talk about the experts, I think about the everyday experts. So, people with disabilities who use these technologies, how does it help them and just kind of go from there in informing my research because it’s informed by people with lived experience. And of course, if you’re looking into suggestions, legality as well, I also highly recommend the Job Accommodation Network. So, ask JAN.org. I think Jan is really helpful for HR leaders and also just talk to people who have firsthand experience. So, I always get asked all the time, like what kinds of things I need or what kind of things inform from my experience as an autistic person.
Haley Moss: [00:25:56.53] Because here’s the thing. No matter how much research there is on technology or different experiences and stuff, I am the everyday expert on myself. I can tell you why I need something. While the scientific research might not have that information, so I might say, you know, I need noise canceling headphones because the chitter chatter around the office and people talking all the time gives me headaches. While research might say, autistic people do not like people talking around them. It’s not that I don’t like talking, it just gives me a headache. So, I think that’s why we have those conversations with people with disabilities as well as the understanding the why and understanding how we can do better at the same time. So I think starting with the everyday experts and, of course, if you have colleagues who have these experiences, too, I think it’s really important to have those conversations and, of course, do it in a respectful way.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:26:45.36] As we look to the next 30 years of work, what emerging workplace trends or technologies do you think will have the biggest impact on people with disabilities?
Haley Moss: [00:26:54.53] I think the biggest things that we’re going to see is we’re going to see increased web and remote accessibility. So, the ADA was written and signed into law 30 years ago. And again, looking back at 1990, we didn’t quite have the Internet the way that we do today. So, coming from a legal perspective, case law has been kind of informing the future of Web accessibility and how to make the Internet more accessible for screen readers and other types of disabilities, too. So, I think eventually we will see greater strides in web and digital accessibility. I hope that eventually gets codified beyond just case law and that the legislature takes it up. I would really like to see something happen at the congressional level on that. I’m hopeful that will happen as far as disability policy goes. I also think that this remote trend that we’re seeing, especially after enduring COVID-19, will continue. And I think there will be more remote opportunities made available, which will have a huge impact on people with disabilities who are typically underemployed or unemployed. And I think getting rid of that physical access barrier is a huge, huge step forward. So I really do think that we’ll be able to start closing that gap on employment, especially because we will have more opportunities available where you can work from home or you can work from an accessible office, or it will also, in that case, as if we are working remotely. And I’m sure a lot of HR folks and executives will be happy to hear this. Your cost of accommodation, which isn’t really that much to begin with, will probably go down even more. So, I do think the next 30 years will give us a more neurodiverse and diverse generally workforce and be made of more people, disabilities generally. So, I am really excited about how technology is going to somehow make things a lot more accessible, too. And I don’t know if I can predict what technology we will have in the next 30 years. I was going to say I can’t even say 30 years ago because I’m not even 30.
Haley Moss: [00:26:54.53] So that in mind, I grew up with dial up Internet and I remember my Dad standing in line to get an iPhone. I could not have predicted the iPhone when I was like five. And of course, something like the iPhone is a game changer for a lot of people. And now it’s like a ubiquitous piece of technology that you see everywhere you go. I don’t know what that next version of the iPhone that everybody and their mother or father or parent has will be in 30 years. But I hope that whatever it is, it’s really accessible. And I think whatever we see in the next 30 years will probably be a game changer that does help close that gap. So, I’m pretty hopeful for what’s next.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:29:28.36] Well, Haley, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. Where can people go to learn more about you and the work that you do?
Haley Moss: [00:29:36.53] So I am very online. I like to joke about this again. When we were talking about the ADA, I mentioned that I am under 30, so I am extremely on social media and online. You can find me on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram @haleymossart or you can find me online at haleymoss.net. I always love to connect with people. I love to talk about accessibility, the ADA, neurodiversity. I love talking about all of these different things in autism at work. I’m really excited for the future of it and thank you again for having me.
Closing: [00:30:09.43] Every employee is unique. No one wants to be put in a box, which is why I appreciate Haley’s story. I love her insights and experience in this area and her ability to put her legal hat on to help us talk about autism hiring programs. As HR leaders, I think we all know that stereotyping is not effective or welcomed. This interview is also a great reminder of that, and what we need as human beings who want to do our best and be successful in our personal and professional lives. This Future of Work series is in partnership with PEAT, and it is one of my favorites. Thank you to PEAT as well as our podcast sponsor, Workology. Join me for the first ever Virtual HR Expo, October 5th through 9th. Demo and meet 35 companies, just like at the Conference Expo Hall, but all online. Let me and Workology help connect you with great HR technology and service providers at virtualhrexpo.com. That’s www.virtualhr.expo.com.